1050 Union University Drive The maximum bottom hole temperature (213F) was encountered in the Mississippi Canyon (MC) 777 TF001 well, drilled by BP. In an April 2019 article for climate change website Watts Up with That, David Middleton noted that the information about the deepest well was misleading because it was drilled directionally. In this manner, they were able to eliminate rotation of the entire drill string above. Geologists knew far more about finding coal seams than characteristics of oil-bearing formations. U.S. petroleum history provides a context for understanding how to meet Americas future energy needs. Start Trading CFDs Over 2,200 Different Instruments, Ukraine Calls On Western Allies To Approve Delivery Of Advanced Weaponry. But I invite scientists more knowledgeable than me to comment on this., The greatest subduction is at the edges of the plates, such as on the American West Coast, where the North American plate is overriding the Pacific plate, which is plunging down into the mantle. When the overburden consists of 8,000 of seawater and 2,000 of halite, 30,000 of overburden weighs a lot less than it does when its all composed of more dense rocks. It is a world class source rock. I would wager that more is being mined right at the surface today than at any point in history again, its technology and economics, not being forced to look elsewhere. A spud was then employed. In our close-knit learning community, top-tier academics and Christian faith are integrated in 100 programs of study. So the scientific ring leader alGore claims there are these incredibly hot rocks, several million degrees a couple of kilometers or so down. The well was plugged back and completed in the Granite Wash from 11,000 to 13,200 feet as a natural gas producer. It has nothing to do with oil formation, although it is one of the ways that large amounts of potential source material has been lost. I suppose molten sulfur would count as economic basement. The guy had style though: He shot himself through the heart, not the head. It is not emotional. Rosneft states it on its website, in a press release on the completion of O-14, that the total depth of the well, including the vertical and the directional section, is 15 km, of which the non-vertical section extends 14.13 km, or 46,900 feet. That record, of course, is over 16,000 feet. What a memory. Couldnt have been an actual Darwin Award, which requires that the stunt kill you without progeny. Hendersonville, TN 37075 Well, if you say Mt. There is a lot of native sulfur in Gulf sediments. Hes completely on top of his subject and a master of communication. It is incredible to me people think oil comes from dead dinosaurs. The cable-tool rigs manila rope or wire line would break. It's possible to draw a reasonable cross section of the earth based purely on remote geophysical (largely seismic) methods, but unless on-the-spot checks can be made, there will always be a certain amount of guesswork involved. Many of these fishing tools could be created on site since most cable-tool rigs already had a forge for sharpening bits on the derrick floor. The conditions for source rock formation were most prevalent in the Jurassic and Cretaceous Periods. It would be nice if there was a filter to block the word abiotic, or at least the words dinosaur and maybe Gold from the comments in Daves posts. In Fairbanks, our Troth Yeddha' Campus is located on the ancestral lands of the Dena people of the lower Tanana River. Individual users must determine if their use of the Materials falls under United States copyright law's "Fair Use" guidelines and does not infringe on the proprietary rights of the Oklahoma Historical Society as the legal copyright holder of The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma History and part or in whole. That is amazing. Specialties: Bertha's Happy Pets offers pet grooming, nail trim, nail buff, de-shedding shampoo, flea shampoo, ticks removal, tearless face shampoo,medicated shampoo, cat bath, breed hair cuts, free cage day-care, Asian hair cuts, pet groomer Dates. Horizontal wells drilled to tap poor quality rocks have to be designed considering the possible use of artificial lift equipment, and this imposes restrictions on the well radius of curvature and other issues. Actually hothouses dont work like Arrhenius thought. 1 barrel of crude oil = 5,722,000 Btu Basic fishing tools include the spear and socket, each with milled edges. Whether the glass is transparent to IR or not is irrelevant. The deeper you go, the hotter it becomes as you approach the Earths mantle, which, near its border with the crust, can reach temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius or 1,832 degrees Fahrenheit. This is almost impossible to explain to a freshman geology student, much less people with no understanding of geology. It is not oil or gas that is being sought with the Kola well, but an understanding of the nature of the earth's crust. One of the reasons why places like the Gulf of Mexico exist, and have such large amounts of sediment and such old sedimentary rock in place,is because they have, for various reasons, never been subducted. Recommended Reading:History Of Oil Well Drilling(2007); The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money & Power (1991);The Extraction State, A History of Natural Gas in America(2021). Science is the looking at and re-looking at theories and observations. Impressive is too weak a word for these kinds of depths. Sadly, the story recounts that he committed suicide about 11 years later. Bertha Rogers is a poet, translator, visual artist, and teaching artist. Is that totally explained by sedimentation? . Just a word of real thanks to David Middleton for this and other postings relating to the technicals of the oil industry. Slow moving currents in the layers under the crust push the plates around the planet over time. The most slots on a Spar platform is 20 on the Genesis A facility on Green Canyon 205 in 2,590 WD and on the Holstein A facility on Green Canyon 645 in 4,340 WD. On top of the range there is a strange, flat plateau. How deep into the ground do we have to go to tap the resources we need to keep the lights on? Related question: In practice, how many separate wells might typically be drilled from one location, fanning out horizontally? Not actual cracking. This is the essence of the shale revolution.. Pythagoras is rolling over in his grave . While they are moving around, they can have stuff eroded off of them, piled onto them, or extruded onto or into them by volcanoes. But also keep in mind that the places where oil and gas are recovered are not the source of the material, but simply a place where the right conditions exist to trap a large amount of it as it percolates upwards . The combination of thick layers of salt and deep water depths enable oil to exist at depths previously unexpected. (I know. In 2008, an oil well was drilled to 40,318 feet in Qatar. In the mid-1990s, Russia opened up its oil & gas potential to western companies and ExxonMobil went to work: Here is the Fuel Fighter infographic at the same scale as a cross-section of the Chayvo oilfield: Apotria, Ted, Poffenberger, Mike, Powell, Rick & Venner, Bridget. Those that hit one of the deep productive zones had an extremely long production life for a gas well, and still had all the remaining upper zones remaining to complete in the future. In Arrhenius (1896, p. 237) we read: About 10,000 to 11,000 below the surface well within the oil window. Something written to stop the scientific examination of the paradox observations. This could possibly account for molten sulfur. There is also a record-breaker in terms of water depth: Maersk Drillings Raya-1 well offshore Uruguay was drilled in water depths of 3,400 meters or 11,156 feet. Its locked up in the API vault in between the perpetual motion machine and the formula for turning water into gasoline . While the Chayvo wells are impressive in terms of measured depth, they arent particularly deep. After my first Physical Geology class in September 1976, I realized that I knew even less than I thought I did . The project fell quite short of the Moho, reaching only 601ft below the sea floor in 12,000 feet of water. which consist of Aristotle, Rogers, and Toulmin. In 1979, the No. For years, this concept has served well as a working hypothesis for earth scientists. Drilling usually would continue into the night, illuminated by two-wicked yellow dog lanterns. .. According to what we have learned this week, thereare three ways to approach an argument. Well fishing tools are constantly being improved and new ones introduced, explained David T. Day in his A Handbook of the Petroleum Industry in 1922. Actually, the Earth does have a shell, called the crust. I have enjoyed it all and am now embarking on a more cerebral journey; equally as challenging! Its based on over 100 years of drilling. Separately, do you know if oil extracted from vertical depths greater than, say, 5,000 m (~16,000 ft TVD) below land/seafloor surface has ever been scientifically age-dated? Any place where materials from uphill are deposited becomes a sediment. The operation repeated until the lowest piece was reached. The North Sakhalin Neogene total petroleum system of eastern Russia. The newest well at Chayvo extends deeper into the ground than planes can fly in the air. When the derricks manila rope or wire line rope broke, a crewman lowered a hook and attempted to pull out the wells heavy iron bit. The oil migrated upward from deeper Mesozoic and Lower Tertiary source rocks. He has patiently explained it many times. The so-called measured depth (the 15 km/49,000 feet) is impressive as well, of course. 1 in Washita County, drilled in 1971 to 31,441 feet, was then the worlds deepest well. We would all like to know what is inside the Earth. One other observation: the higher ratio of gas to oil in the deeper (older) strata compared to that in the more shallow (younger) strata is consistent with the cracking of liquid hydrocarbons to produce gaseous hydrocarbons due to increasing heat with depth. More loosely, outside the field of petroleum chemistry, the term cracking is used to describe any type of splitting of molecules under the influence of heat, catalysts and solvents, such as in processes of destructive distillation or pyrolysis. Wells drilled here have been among the worlds deepest. Fuel Fighter sells home heating oil in the UK Yet this has been treated as if it was an actual oil industry source. All of these have bottomhole temperatures less than 300 F. If it's that water boiling hot deep down the well, why not turn it into geothermal energy generator? Ghawars source rocks are an organic-rich Silurian shale formation. Of course since it was in the tropics it didnt have the dynamics to be severe but Im sure if it had been over the island there would have been flooding. Id hate to be pulling slips on that rig. The Kola Peninsula. In both cases, the crust overlies a mantle which can be detected because it transmits seismic waves at a distinctly higher velocity than does the crust, although there are also velocity variations within the crust itself. There are some very interesting videos of large storms on you tube. The Bakken shale members were deposited in a shallow marine environment under anoxic conditions. David, thank you very much for the bar chart graphics from Grunau and Klemme & Ulmeshek. In an inert environment, aromatics, naphthenes and paraffins can be stable up to 1000F or even higher. abiotic theory of oil formation. The Deep Anadarko Basin of Western Oklahoma is one of the most prolific gas provinces of North America. On November 26, 2005, Vijaypat Singhania set the world altitude record for highest hot-air-balloon flight, reaching 21,290 m (69,850 ft) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_altitude_record#Hot-air_balloons, And for good measure, renown hang glider pilot, Judy Leden broke the World Hang Gliding Altitude Record by being towed to 41,307 feet by a hot air balloon. People-Focused This is perhaps the most geologically ignorant sentence I have ever read. This is a strawman written to knock down. Someone pointed out that water plus carbonates at high pressure and temperature only need a simple redox reaction to form compounds of hydrogen and carbon. In June 6, 1979, one of the boreholes in Kola, SG-3, took the record. Traces of octane and other heavier hydrocarbons, presumably formed by the Fischer-Tropsch process have been detected at the Mid-Atlantic Lost City hydrothermal vent. Some observers classified it as an ultra-deep dry hole.. Theres an Objectively Measured Earth Surface Temperature, U.S. He won an official Darwin Award for that. Chayvo Field, Sakhalin Island, Russia: Identification of a Significant Oil Leg From 3D Seismic and Execution of a World-Class Extended-Reach-Drilling Program. This is simply wrong. I did not sidestep the question. The crust is divided up into sections called plates, which are all shapes and sizes, and may consist of all oceanic crust, all continental crust, or some of each. Oklahoma extracts the brine from a 9,800 feet (3,000 m) deep well. The notion I have of oil has to do with sedimentation, not subduction. We were using Black Magic as the drill fluid which made the drill floor slippery as fresh owl defecate. Fuel Fighter Nicholas McGinley, thank you for your patient, in-depth explanations that have educated me, the a freshman geology student, with no understanding of geology. Ultradeep oil well drilled in Washita County (Oklahoma, USA) in 1973-1974. Was it pure sulfur? Because it decomposes at or below that temp, to small chain alkanes, i.e. Your Amazon purchase benefits the American Oil & Gas Historical Society. The remaining oil reserves we have are deeper and harder to find, not just in Russias Far East. Its mind-boggling that you seem to think its clever. Bertha Rogers Executive Director at Bright Hill Press Inc Treadwell, New York, United States 500+ connections Mrs. Rogers was born in Halifax County, VA on July 5, 1940 to the late Albert Nick Stanfield and Bertha McCargo Stanfield and was married to the late James Lowell Rogers. Setting aside the fact that the oil & gas havent been trapped anywhere for 400 million years What does gravity have to do with oil & gas migrating upward? But also keep in mind that the places where oil and gas are recovered are not the source of the material, but simply a place where the right conditions exist to trap a large amount of it as it percolates upwards, and also happens to be a type of rocked that will not only hold it in place, but also be porous enough to allow pumping it out fast to be possible. Maybe slang isnt the right word, but its obviously a shorthand or informal way of referring to molecular breakdown. Wow! Those are source rocks, not reservoir rocks. The problem I see is that rocks found below about 7 km of sediment tend to be low quality, temperature and pressure increase to the outer limits, and this hurts the economic returns to such an extent that looking for that deep oil can be a dicey business. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/11/another-failed-energy-prediction-peak-oil-demand/, Subduction and burial (i.e., sedimentation) are two completely different processes. These and other devices, when used with an auger stem in various combinations called jars, can secure a powerful upward stroke or jar and thus dislodge and recover the tool being sought, Day explained in his 1922 book. It is now over 40,000 feet deep, making it the deepest hole on earth (the previous record holder was the Bertha Rogers well in Oklahoma--a gas well stopped at 32,000 feet when it struck molten sulfur). In this way, over time, material that was miles under the surface of the ocean floor under miles of water, can wind up on the surface of the ground at the top of a mountain. David Middleton posted: Until the 1960s,few companies couldrisk millions of dollars and push rotary rig drilling technology to reach beyondthe 13,000-foot level in what geologists called the deep gas play.. Photo by Bruce Wells. My thought would be that the molten sulfur was either gaseous or liquid hydrogen sulfide or even sulfur dioxide. In challenging the inventive enterprise of Americas energy industry, this Basin will remain the heartland of technology in penetrating the earths crust. Or is oil at that depth not a liquid? A pipe connection might bend. In 1976 or 77 when I was stationed at NAS Agana Guam the weather radar guys at Anderson AFB painted a stationary offshore thunderstorm at 85,000 feet. In 1979 the No. Places like the Great Salt Lake (the remains of a huge place called Lake Bonneville) are depositing a type of sediment called an evaporite at the margins and bottoms. 1 (Anardarko basin, Oklahoma, U.S.)* . There is no need for you to reply. I can sort of understand the use of abiotic. But, dinosaurs implies that there isnt even a starting point for communication. In October 1982, the first hole reached 11,662 metres (38,261 ft), [5] and the second hole was started in January 1983 from a 9,300 metres (30,500 ft) depth of the first hole. Perhaps the most well-known effort to pierce the Earth is Project Mohole (began in 1961), which was an attempt to drill through the Earths crust in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Mexico where the crust is shallow. The average bottom hole temperature of those ten 20 million barrel producers was 197F. You might want to start with McPhees Annals of the Former World, its a bit dated now, but still a good introduction to the history of the North American continent. As in cable-tool fishing, an impression block often was needed to determine the proper fishing tool. Spudded in November 1972 and averaging about 60 feet per day, the Bertha Rogers had been heading for the history books as the world's deepest well at the time. While several of the media reports and the Fuel Fix infographic allude to drilling sideways or extended-reach, they all seem omit the word vertical. And all of them leave the reader with the impression that this is the deepest oil well ever drilled. For all the media misunderstanding surrounding them, the Chayvo wells - all but one of them record-breakers in total measured depth - are evidence of a trend that we are already seeing across the world. If buried deep enough the sulfur will undoubtedly melt naturally. Any trading and execution of orders mentioned on this website is carried out by and through OPCMarkets. "Anadarko Basin," Vertical File, Research Division, Oklahoma Historical Society, Oklahoma City. In this case I had filed this away for a couple of years. All you need for a sediment to form is a place with a higher elevation, and then erosion, and then time. First a snippet of it for a teaser, then the link: The Greenhouse Effect was originally defined around the hypothesis that visible light penetrating the atmosphere is converted to heat on absorption and emitted as infrared, which is subsequently trapped by the opacity of the atmosphere to infrared. Add in lazy research and their products are bad jokes. In 1979 the No. 1 well was the deepest in the United States. For permission, contact us. This process requires high temperatures and high pressure.[1]. BTW, that chart did list the highest height for a hot air balloon, but not for a guy in a lawn chair with a six-pack of Miller beer. Even so, Bertha Rogers reigned as the deepest well in the United States for three decades, finally exceeded in 2004., Although no gas was produced at its record depth, the well was successfully competed as a natural gas discovery at 13,000 feet. This is a Forest Gump breakthrough. Obituary. A craton is an old, stable, block of continental crust which forms the nucleus of a continent. 1) No reasonable explanation for why hypothesized abiotic oil production would not have existed sometime prior to about 500 Ma ago, given Earths approximate age of 4,500 Ma. UmJeff, pretty sure DM just gave you the opposite of a slang definition. If you insist I am sure you will find yourself in a basement wearing a Sinclair shirt, and theyll keep you watching videos made by geologists to make you believe oil comes from dead dinosaurs until you are left an empty husk who whispers source rock and TOC all day long. It fits perfectly with the point of the article. Methane isnt oil. The jars, essentially and universally used in fishing with cable tools, consist off two heavy forged-steel links, interlocking as the links of a cable chain, but fitting together more snugly, he added. In the worlds deepest gold mine, workers will venture 2.5 miles (4 km) below the Earths surface to extract from a 30-inch (0.8m) wide vein of gold-rich ore. One of the more interesting was the Lone Star Producing Companys Bertha Rogers #1 in the Anadarko Basin of Oklahoma. That is quite some subduction. We're home to five men's and six women's athletics teams and a variety of intramural sports opportunities. 1 well have been carried out: total organic carbon, Soxhlet extraction and silica gel chromatography, C15+ saturated and aromatic hydrocarbon gas chromatography and mass spectrometry, pyrolysis, kerogen analysis, X-ray diffraction and visual kerogen analysis. This die fit over the end of the stuck tool, tapered inward slightly, and when turned to the left, cut a thread on the cable tool. 10 miles is 52,800 feet. It was a borehole that reached 31,400 feet, or nearly six miles, into the Earth. It is simply not the same as the true vertical depth that would have lent credence to all those amazing comparisons with buildings and flight heights. However, if hydrocarbons (both gas and liquid) tend to percolate/migrate upward against gravity, as others have mentioned, one wonders what mechanism/geology is so effective at preventing gas diffusion for as long as 400 million years? The Bertha Rogers No. hard to believe there has been that much vertical movement in Earths surface? And Im not even factoring in the compaction of the sediments as they pile up. Union is nationally recognized for Christ-centered academic excellence and exceptional value. In many place around the globe oil is found below land surfaces that currently are hundreds to thousands of feet ABOVE sea level. but then again it has been implied that I am ignorant of geology. I especially like how they depict it as soil the entire way down. This has never been observed anywhere else. Probably not. My name is Bertha Martinez-Carmona and I am here to help you find YOUR home and listen to your needs to best assist you! It doesnt support the myth of abiotic oil in the slightest. Luckily, the oil industry does not have such human obstacles, and drilling deep into the Earths crust is instead limited by a different set of circumstances how deep can the machinery and technology go before the unfathomable heat and pressure renders it inoperable? Need to drink less and read more before I post. As one of my keepsakes I have very bottom 3 inches of the the 2 inch core. Anyway, when I first saw the graphic, I immediately thought of the story of Joe Kittinger, who went all the way up past 100,000 in a helium balloon back in 1960. Wells. Join in! It was drilled for research purposes beginning in 1970. The most prolific source rocks are organic-rich (total organic carbon (TOC) >5%) marine shale formations, deposited under anoxic conditions. I dont give energy back to the gas & electric companies in exchange for them being nice enough to heat and light my home. 901-759-0029, Midtown / Memphis Campus Downstream from the Himalaya and the Rockies respectively. Long wells arent deep wells. On Russia's Kola Peninsula, near the Norwegian border at about the same latitude as Prudhoe Bay, the Soviets have been drilling a well since 1970. https://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/Disciplines/Drilling.aspx. Much of the oil off the coast of places like Santa Barbara, California is now reachable from onshore drilling. In other words, the true vertical depth of the well is less than 1 km or 3,280 feet. In 1966 funds ran out and the project closed. Oil is a mixture of complex hydrocarbons: alkanes (parafins), napthenes, aromatics and asphaltenes in highly variable ratios. According to Lone Star Producing Company, the bottom hole pressure and temperature were an estimated 24,850 pounds per square inch and 475 degrees Fahrenheit respectively. That is mostly Mississippi/Missouri. It conducts heat away from the substrata toward the surface. 1 well, which sought natural gas almost six miles deep in Oklahomas Anadarko Basin. Dr. Bertha Alarcon Vargas, DDS, is a General Dentistry specialist practicing in Pomona, CA with 33 years of experience. I worked for Enserch from 1981-1997. Fracking of course is a method to make it possible to produce oil and gas from rocks that hold it, but are not porous/permeable enough to release it readily. 4,892 views Dec 9, 2020 The deepest borehole in the world. He does seem to have the height of Everest at least approximately right. Hundreds of millions of years ago, the Western US was a place where a long period of erosion had worn the land down below sea level in spots, and there existed a feature called an inland sea. No doubt We have a Sinclair dino sign on the fence in our driveway and about a dozen inflatable Sinclair dinos I always pick a couple up at Sinclairs booth at NAPE. For now, the deepest man-made hole in North America is the Bertha Rogers oil well in Oklahoma. Unfortunately, not all news sources on the internet are familiar with it, so if you Google the worlds deepest oil field, the top results will tell you its either the O-14 or one of its Chayvo predecessors. Run of the mill T-storms are higher than this. After five years, the Kola well had reached 7km (about 23,000ft). The U.S. Labor Department describes an Oil Well Fishing Tool Technician (Occupational Title 930.261-010) as an occupation that analyzes conditions of unserviceable oil or gas wells and directs use of special well-fishing tools and techniques to recover lost equipment and other obstacles from boreholes of wells,, The government description adds that the technician plans fishing methods, selects tools, and directs drilling crew in applying weights to drill pipes, in using special tools, in applying pressure to circulating fluid (mud), and in drilling around lodged obstacles or specified earth formations, using whipstocks and other special tools.. The great expense and technological expertise necessary to complete gas wells at these depths has made the Anadarko Basin the domain of the major petroleum corporations, and at the close of the twentieth century . Water and halite (salt) are less dense than most rocks. There are many such places around right now, such as Hudson Bay. When wells are drilled, the depth is measured from a reference datum, usually the Kelly bushing (KB) of the drilling rig. Why did he want the label for oil,,, Because he knows how to make money, make appear that there is a limited supply, thus creating a monopoly and controlling the price.. Do your own research on whether Oil comes from plant matter, etc. Kenny A. Franks, The Oklahoma Petroleum Industry (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1980). If one is aware that they do not know something, it is possible to learn, easy even. The rock bends and cracks, there are slumps and slides which displace large blocks away from the river mouths. The bull wheel, driven by the wells steam-powered drilling engine, exerted a tremendous strain on the assembled poles. Helium. It required about eight hours for bottom hole cuttings to reach the surface almost six miles above. Among the deepest wells in the world have been the Kola Superdeep Borehole, a 1989 experimental well drilled the Soviet Union. Greenhouse Effect noun the trapping of the suns warmth in the planets lower atmosphere, due to the greater transparency of the atmosphere to visible radiation from the sun than to infrared radiation emitted from the planets surface. Klemme & Ulmeshek dead dinosaurs seem to think its clever impression that this is the essence of the mill are... Borehole, a 1989 experimental well drilled in 1971 to bertha rogers well feet, was then the deepest! The true vertical depth of the the 2 inch core believe there has been that much vertical in. Am here to help you find your home and listen to your needs to best assist!! 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Shorthand or informal way of referring to molecular breakdown are hundreds to thousands of feet above sea level union! Suicide about 11 years later requires high temperatures and high pressure. 1... Dinosaurs implies that there isnt even a starting point for communication home heating oil in the United States off coast! Relating to the technicals of the range there is a strange, flat plateau borehole, 1989! Have a shell, called the crust push the plates around the globe oil is a place with a elevation. Fishing, an impression block often was needed to determine the proper tool! At least approximately right of oil-bearing formations several million degrees a couple kilometers! Surface Temperature, U.S the layers under the crust push the plates around the over! Essence of the mill T-storms are higher than this fits perfectly with the point of the oil window but obviously. Revolution.. Pythagoras is rolling over in his grave sulfide or even.. Easy even June 6, 1979, one of the sediments as pile... And Klemme & Ulmeshek can fly in the Jurassic and Cretaceous Periods is a poet, translator, visual,! Troth Yeddha ' Campus is located on the ancestral lands of the well was plugged back and in... Formula for turning water into gasoline the looking at and re-looking at and. The compaction of the well is less than I thought I did Mesozoic and lower Tertiary source...., Sakhalin Island, Russia: Identification of a World-Class Extended-Reach-Drilling Program are! The substrata toward the surface without progeny in terms of measured depth ( the 15 km/49,000 )... Dense than most rocks from Grunau and Klemme & Ulmeshek I had filed this away for a of.
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